Purpose-Driven Innovation: Niki Santo's Biotech Journey (Swaza)

WEBVTT

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Thanks for joining me today, Nikki. Hey, Rashad,

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great to be here. As we said today, you are leading

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a biotechnology startup at the forefront of medicine.

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How did you get here? Well, it's an interesting

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story. I actually am the co -founder and CEO

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of Swaza, which is based in Mountain View, California,

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Silicon Valley biotechnology startup. But how

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I came to it actually was as the first outside

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investor to the company. And the story really

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starts in COVID, as many of the stories today

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start. But in my case, in 2020 is the year that

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I call my Jobin year, because in that year, I

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lost my mom very early to COVID. To tell you

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how early it was when she passed in Virginia,

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they wrote about it in the Washington Post with

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two other people, because it was so exotic to

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actually have someone die from SARS -CoV -2.

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In that same year, I lost all of my dependents

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who lived with me. They were older dependents.

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And I suffered a head injury where I had to relearn

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how to walk again. I had so many different life

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changes in that one short period of time. I found

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myself at the end of 2020. alone with the mirror

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and God and asking the question, you know, when

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we lose those aspects of our identity that we

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define our daily lives by, then who are we really?

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And at the end of that time, I sort of just realized

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that, well, whatever I have or I haven't done

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or whatever I've achieved, I haven't achieved.

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I'm a steward. We don't really own anything.

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It's all on loan to us, time, money, resources,

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and talent. So I thought, well, what I need to

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do is basically spend whatever time I do have,

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whether it's 10 years or 100 years, it's all

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really short, building things that matter. And

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so I radically changed what my Focus was on,

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I radically changed the things I was investing

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in. I had a very different risk profile and risk

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appetite. And it wasn't really for money, but

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it was for impact. And so in parallel, at that

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same time, my co -founder Jay Rajadas had been

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rapidly trying to race against the clock to develop

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key technologies in response to COVID. a vaccine,

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a therapeutic, a number of other technologies.

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But the fourth technology he developed was this

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nanofluid breathing aid technology. And so when

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we met and converged, it really was about time

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and purpose. And I saw the utility of what we

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were doing in not only in respiratory care, but

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really the approach using these advanced drug

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delivery techniques to really create new kinds

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of therapeutics that really addressed the host

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or the person rather than specific underlying

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biochemical processes of disease as being not

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only very useful, but having huge utility and

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in meeting a huge unmet need. So my journey to

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this type of entrepreneurism rather than having

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it be a progression or departure from something

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that I had been doing before was more of a homecoming

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to a really intentional grounded and purposeful

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approach to not only investing my time but resources

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and an effort into. So when I came upon Swaza

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technology, it wasn't the question, should I

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do this? It was the question, how can I not do

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this? Because this matters. This is what I need

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to be called to build. And so that alignment

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of purpose, that alignment of mission was really

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what drove what drove all of this. Jay, who's

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the inventor of the technology, he spent his

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entire life creating life -giving therapeutics.

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And it's not for money or for fame. It's because

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he wants to see people benefit from good science

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and have better quality of life. So it's a real

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privilege to be able to do this and to represent

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a team of people who have decades of experience

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and passion creating therapeutics and regenerative

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biomaterials. I'm sorry to hear about your mom

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and your family. It sounds like you went through

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a very difficult time. to almost reprogram and

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rewire your thinking and your purpose to a different

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mission. If you're open, maybe talk to me about

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how did you think about purpose in life and how

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did that translate to different career opportunities

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you undertook before? It seems like you did amazing.

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work even before the COVID pandemic, and you

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continue to do amazing work after. To me, it

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looks almost like a linear trajectory, if I'm

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being frank with you, although I'll be in different

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industries and different radicals. How do you

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think about purpose now? And what advice do you

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have to say a 20 -year -old Nikki, if you had

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a chance to talk to her, what would you tell

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her about? purpose and maybe let's, you know,

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feel free to go into the personal side of things

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as well, but if you can give a synopsis on the

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career or the work side of things as well. Well,

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thanks, Rashad. I had been blessed with a very

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good career. I was good at what I did before.

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I was an executive leadership, particularly at

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the intersection of academia and entrepreneurship.

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We were building businesses spinning out of academia

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to actually scale up higher education. This was

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with the growth of online learning, with the

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growth of digital. textbooks, and the growth

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of competency -based education. So we were really

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one of the pioneers that ended up building an

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organization that was sold to University of Massachusetts

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in 2021. And so the educational mission, again,

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it ties back to a sense of purpose, a contribution

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to the world leadership. At the same time, I

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think, in the course of that career, which was

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very meaningful. I think we all reach these certain

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plateaus where you know that you're very good

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at it, but you're not learning more, and that

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the thing more that you should be doing may be

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outside of your comfort zone. And so I had reached

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that point at several different stages in my

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career. And I would always respond to that by

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stepping back and then seeing, given where I

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am right now, what can I do to explore these

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other aspects or talents that I want to cultivate?

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And who are the people that I should be doing

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that with? And that actually led me to a lot

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of my angel investing too. So prior to coming

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on board with Swaza, I had been doing a number

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of investments. investor with a little I, but

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you know, I had had the fortune of being just

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being in the Silicon Valley, right, persisting,

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getting getting some wins in that that area,

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which then, you know, rolled into my entrepreneurial

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journey at swaza. But to tell the 20 year old

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self, I actually have one of the really profound

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joys that I have is when I talk to young people.

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A couple of years ago, I was invited to University

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of Chicago at the Booth School of Business to

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meet with students there and talk to them about

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their journeys. And what I actually told those

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students, and this is something that I did after

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that profound year in 2020 at the end, was I

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sat and I made a list of everything that I wanted

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to do, be, and see like in terms of achievement

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and these are not necessarily a career achievements,

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but I didn't want to die before I knew this list

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of things that I had touched upon them and. It

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and it had to be a very honest list. It wasn't

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about what would look good to somebody on the

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outside. You know, the house car, everything

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that it wasn't from the outside in. It was from

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the inside out and having to sit and very be

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very honest with that list. And I sat at one

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point and I wrote and I kept writing and I kept

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writing just each line a different thing until

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I found myself starting to repeat things. That

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means I had exhausted that. And that became what

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I call the list, not very creative. But the interesting

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thing is when I committed to that sense of vision,

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that real true heart list, that's when everything

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really shifted for me that brought me to this

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part of my journey. Some of the things on the

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list were actually quite outlandish and ridiculous,

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like things I would have never imagined happening,

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but they felt truly aspirational to me. And the

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interesting thing is that over the course of

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time, I started noticing even those outlandish

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things on the list actually start to happen,

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because there was a fundamental truth, I think,

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from the inside out and then connecting. With

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the world that you live in and the life that

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that you you live in it there's there's an alignment

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there so i tell young people. Spend time making

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that list and be 100 % honest with yourself and

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then if you think you want something stop and

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say why do i want that is is it because i'm supposed

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to want that. Because social media tells me to

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want it, or whatever, or my classmates in my

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grad school tell me that that's what I should

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aspire to, or do I really want it? And it can

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be simple things as well. So my list ranges from

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the outlandish, about building my company, et

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cetera, to just small daily rituals of like,

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well, I want to have nice flowers in my house

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every week. Like, down to that level of detail,

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it somehow is important to my soul. I put it

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on the list. So that's what I tell young people.

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And that's what I tell myself, because that was

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a transformative process for me. And I still,

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every day, every morning, I put that list in

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front of me. Because you need that on the entrepreneurial

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journey, as you probably know yourself, to remind

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you, what am I doing? Why? Where does this come

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from? and every morning I put in front of me.

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And that's what orients my thinking that day.

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That's fascinating. And I'm someone who struggles

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with routine a lot. Every day is different, and

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I kind of like it that way. Which isn't ideal

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because often I get into Friday and I have 30

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things to do and I'm up till midnight. How do

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you think about routine and having say weekly

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or monthly goals or even daily goals as opposed

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to more going with the flow to an extent and

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just kind of seeing where the opportunities and

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problems lie in both here. personal and business

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life and dealing with those as they come? Yeah,

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that's a really good question because I think

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like you my natural tendency is to want to Not

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be limited by routine and then as an entrepreneur

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you can't really have professionally a routine

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as you would in a corporate environment where

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I know that these sort of set meetings are what

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I need to get to in order to, quote, do a good

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job. In a startup, which is not a company, it's

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a startup. It's building something that doesn't

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exist yet. You need to get to the milestone.

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You need to solve the problem. You need to address

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the the situation, whether it's equipment in

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your lab or if it's closing an investment. And

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those things can be very stochastic and they

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are the enemy of routine. What I found probably

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be more helpful rather than the routine itself

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is to have a very stable mental model about how

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you manage your objectives and time or effort

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rather. And I think effort and energy That's

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now what I think about things more. And so I

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was not, for example, prioritizing my health

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very early in the startup. It was all living

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very cognitively trying to just focus on the

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work of and the thousand different things that

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you need to pay attention to. But I realized

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that having a proper routine for my sleep, my

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diet, my exercise, if I didn't have that, then

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I couldn't support this cognitive life that had

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to drive. I couldn't make the right decisions.

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I couldn't have the right level of energy to

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do what I need to do. So it was more aligning

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to the bigger goal and then having that be what

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drives the sense of routine. And then also having

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some flexibility and then having those habits.

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So I like to think about things more in terms

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of a weekly container. What are the priorities

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for the week according to the role that I'm playing?

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And I'm a student of 1990s management theory.

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So like the Franklin Covies of the world, in

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1995, Intel had adopted this kind of universal

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time management system, which was called the

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Franklin system. This was ultimately acquired

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by Stephen Covering and became Franklin Covey.

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But that kind of model of having understanding

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what the important things are versus what's urgent.

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Did you explain the system to us? Yeah. So this

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paradigm is kind of understanding the difference

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between important and urgent. There are things

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that are both important and urgent. Those have

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to be top of mind. There are things that are

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urgent just because they're emerging contingencies

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and exigencies, but they're not necessarily important.

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They're little fires. But then there are things

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that are Neither important nor nor urgent or

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not strategic but oftentimes these take up a

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lot of our our time meaningless meanings pro

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forma kinds of things random emails but. because

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their activity, they can feel productive. And

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so the paradigm that I found very useful was,

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I think, one developed by Stephen Covey himself

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was called the big rocks, where you focus on

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what the big rocks are in your week, like the

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big things that you know have to get done that

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are really important. And then everything else

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gets organized around them. And then sort of

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organizing things by the week tend to be the

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right time scale for me, because then the day,

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you can slot things into the day. But as long

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as you feel that you are in the right direction

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for the week, I tend to find that that's been

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my sweet spot in terms of routines and in organizations.

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It's still a work in proc, still a work in process

00:17:13.910 --> 00:17:17.569
and progress. You know, I have colleagues who

00:17:17.569 --> 00:17:21.609
are very routinized, and I kind of admire them

00:17:21.609 --> 00:17:28.640
from afar for consistency. But that's what I

00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:34.900
do for me. There's a common mantra in this world

00:17:34.900 --> 00:17:36.960
or in this ecosystem that says, you know, move

00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:40.039
fast, break things, have a strong bias to action.

00:17:41.110 --> 00:17:44.430
And from an experiential perspective, I feel

00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:48.369
like that can go wrong very often in health care,

00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:51.369
because often you don't get second chances if

00:17:51.369 --> 00:17:54.950
you move fast or break things. And I have a very

00:17:54.950 --> 00:17:56.829
strong bias to action, so I have to temper this

00:17:56.829 --> 00:18:01.150
bias. Sometimes I need to plan a bit more before

00:18:01.150 --> 00:18:05.480
I launch a new product or even simple things

00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:08.180
like editing this podcast. I need to spend some

00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:12.200
time editing it and listening to it, coming up

00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:16.279
with some promotional materials. How do you think

00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.960
about bias to action versus bias to planning?

00:18:20.740 --> 00:18:23.819
I like Adam Grant's philosophy of moderate procrastination

00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:27.519
here. I don't know if I like it because that

00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:30.619
resonates with me, but how do you think about

00:18:30.619 --> 00:18:35.940
kind of these two opposites of planning or just

00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:40.920
acting right away? I think probably my experience

00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:44.920
is that overall a bias towards action tends to

00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:49.480
move the ball down the field. But a bias towards

00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:53.160
action isn't an excuse for lack of very intentional

00:18:53.579 --> 00:18:56.240
thinking and planning because you can move the

00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:58.380
ball the wrong direction. You could score the

00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:02.519
wrong goal, but probably on average, it's better

00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:07.960
to move than to keep still. That's just been

00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:14.859
my experience. I think procrastination is probably

00:19:14.859 --> 00:19:18.420
inevitable with any kind of thinking work that

00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:22.750
requires deep, deep thinking. And anywhere you're

00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:26.190
dealing with an unknown, that is, in fact, what

00:19:26.190 --> 00:19:29.970
you're mulling over. Where there could be multiple

00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:34.910
possibilities for a problem or a solution, you

00:19:34.910 --> 00:19:38.809
can't just act your way towards a solution sometimes.

00:19:38.809 --> 00:19:42.269
You have to think through, iterate, create small

00:19:42.269 --> 00:19:47.230
experiments, sort of test a hypothesis, and move

00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:52.819
forward. But I think the world as it's structured

00:19:52.819 --> 00:19:57.960
now is made for people who take action. And we

00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:01.279
know this intuitively. Is it always the most

00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:06.200
clever, the most competent, the most qualified

00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:15.880
who win the prize or win the game? No, it's often

00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.880
people who reach out and take. Take it right

00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:25.480
and that said. You know we want we want people

00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:28.240
to be thoughtful I don't believe in breaking

00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:31.700
things and we're in and you and I are in the

00:20:31.700 --> 00:20:37.220
sort of the health. You know field right where

00:20:37.220 --> 00:20:39.480
it's not about breaking things about first doing

00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:43.539
no harm and so. That's a guiding principle for

00:20:43.539 --> 00:20:46.299
us. Whatever we build, we need to make sure we

00:20:46.299 --> 00:20:50.680
spend the time. And if it takes longer, that

00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:54.920
it's 100 % absolutely safe. And it's 100 % absolutely

00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:57.799
we are confident that it's not going to cause

00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:01.460
harm. Or if there are harms, we understand every

00:21:01.460 --> 00:21:05.380
aspect of that potential harm. I think even if

00:21:05.380 --> 00:21:10.039
you're not building a medical technology, that's

00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:15.059
a good stance to adopt. And I think more builders,

00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:19.140
more engineers should think of that first. Why

00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:21.700
am I doing this? And what is the broader impact

00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:25.539
of what I'm doing? And therefore, I should force

00:21:25.539 --> 00:21:28.119
myself to slow down where it matters so that

00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:31.880
I don't create unintended consequences for what

00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:36.539
I build. Yeah, unintended consequences and downstream

00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:39.220
effects of what you build are critical in healthcare.

00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:42.099
You said something in the previous answer that

00:21:42.099 --> 00:21:45.740
I really like is activity can feel like progress.

00:21:45.940 --> 00:21:50.559
I feel like founders, sometimes they seek external

00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:53.019
validation more than internal validation. And

00:21:53.019 --> 00:21:55.140
by internal, I mean, internal company validation,

00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:58.900
which is, you know, does this drive revenue growth?

00:22:00.269 --> 00:22:03.069
Is the internal team aligned on the strategies

00:22:03.069 --> 00:22:06.109
we're foreseeing and is everyone happy? Is the

00:22:06.109 --> 00:22:09.829
team happy? Are we getting along? Sometimes I'll

00:22:09.829 --> 00:22:11.529
meet founders and then I see they're jumping

00:22:11.529 --> 00:22:14.329
from pitch competition to pitch competition and

00:22:14.329 --> 00:22:18.069
stage to stage and I go, oh no, these guys or

00:22:18.069 --> 00:22:21.970
these girls, they're going for the external validation

00:22:21.970 --> 00:22:26.470
of speaking on stage and winning. You know, usually

00:22:26.470 --> 00:22:29.130
these pitch competitions are $1 ,000 to $5 ,000

00:22:29.130 --> 00:22:33.569
as opposed to, and their team is staying back

00:22:33.569 --> 00:22:36.089
and working. And you can kind of see the path

00:22:36.089 --> 00:22:39.589
there. And usually it does not work out. Maybe

00:22:39.589 --> 00:22:43.049
let's give you a scenario. Let's say you got

00:22:43.049 --> 00:22:46.750
invited to JP Morgan Mainstage keynote speaker

00:22:46.750 --> 00:22:50.559
for Swaza. So something that maybe could. move

00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.819
the needle for revenue in some aspects, or at

00:22:52.819 --> 00:22:54.519
least from an investor perspective, although

00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:56.900
I would argue raising money is not the goal.

00:22:58.460 --> 00:23:01.660
It's a signal, but it doesn't really move the

00:23:01.660 --> 00:23:06.640
needle that much. There is some internal team

00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.460
dynamics at play that urgently happen that kind

00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:13.359
of need your attention to fix them. You know,

00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:16.240
your co -founders are fighting or something that

00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:18.960
I'm sure happens with every startup at some point.

00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:21.619
What do you pick and how do you kind of think

00:23:21.619 --> 00:23:24.880
about external validation and internal validation?

00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:27.039
And I'll kind of wrap this whole question up

00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:31.019
and with one more caveat, given that marketing

00:23:31.019 --> 00:23:35.460
matters and the world that we live in is designed

00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:38.539
where people make emotional decision and organizations

00:23:38.539 --> 00:23:41.400
make emotional decisions as well. And brand and

00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:47.680
marketing is important. I think your last caveat

00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.619
is so important and is so often under looked.

00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:55.279
And I'll get to that. But when you said JP Morgan

00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:58.799
main stage, sorry, the building can be on fire.

00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.579
I'll be on that main. that main stage. That's

00:24:02.579 --> 00:24:04.920
an opportunity you don't really pass up. But

00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:07.759
joking aside, that points to the bigger point,

00:24:07.819 --> 00:24:12.140
which is being selective about those stages.

00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.619
And you always have to tie it back to the mission

00:24:14.619 --> 00:24:16.099
of the company, what you're actually trying to

00:24:16.099 --> 00:24:22.900
achieve at that point. People and team, you're

00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:27.460
not going to achieve anything without them. making

00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:29.680
sure those things are taken care of. And we've

00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:36.680
had critical points where on the surface, all

00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:41.720
the external things were great. But I knew if

00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:47.420
we didn't address some internal dynamic, that

00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:53.339
surface success was going to disappear. quickly,

00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:57.960
or it would evaporate. And so sometimes doing

00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:01.420
the deep work of really realigning everybody,

00:25:02.980 --> 00:25:09.339
and myself included, actually, is important at

00:25:09.339 --> 00:25:12.640
key touch points. And then being able to also

00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:16.380
reflect back, because oftentimes, particularly

00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:19.880
in the startup world, we're running to the next

00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.079
thing. We're winning, but then there's you climb

00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:24.880
one mountain. You see the seven others. You've

00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:28.599
got to climb still and you don't stop. You have

00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:32.279
to stop and reflect back because you can't keep

00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:36.880
everybody with you, right? And with this, if

00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:40.420
you can't step back and and really in gratitude,

00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:44.319
see where you've come from that that that's really,

00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:48.440
really important. But your last point about.

00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:51.700
Well, the marketing and the story, I think there's

00:25:51.700 --> 00:25:56.359
obviously two extremes where when you say like,

00:25:56.420 --> 00:26:00.099
what gets measured gets done oftentimes in a

00:26:00.099 --> 00:26:05.339
very media rich environment and an information

00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:10.579
heavy environment. What you post and what seems

00:26:10.579 --> 00:26:14.839
external looks like what you're measuring. And

00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:18.539
then you create this self sustaining loop where

00:26:18.670 --> 00:26:21.730
the more you do that the more it seems like you're

00:26:21.730 --> 00:26:25.150
making progress and it it tells a good story

00:26:25.150 --> 00:26:30.349
but i i was recently in conversations with a

00:26:30.349 --> 00:26:34.089
very close friend who is the managing director

00:26:34.089 --> 00:26:37.869
of a big investment bank in new york that specializes

00:26:37.869 --> 00:26:41.630
in biotech and he offered me a cautionary tale

00:26:41.630 --> 00:26:46.390
which is from our perspective from the 45th floor

00:26:46.390 --> 00:26:49.049
of people who are going to be financing that

00:26:49.049 --> 00:26:53.369
last three rounds right before IPO or that acquisition.

00:26:54.049 --> 00:26:58.730
We see your activity as a distraction because

00:26:58.730 --> 00:27:01.750
for us we're running the core numbers on your

00:27:01.750 --> 00:27:05.890
primary program and is that particular asset

00:27:05.890 --> 00:27:09.490
going to make money and of sufficient multiples

00:27:09.490 --> 00:27:14.309
on our investment in order to justify the investment.

00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:19.940
And so it can look like and feel like you're

00:27:19.940 --> 00:27:22.759
doing a lot. But if you're ignoring your primary

00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:28.319
business and it's proper feeding and care, we

00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.839
are going to see that we can see it because we

00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.000
see it all the time. So he literally offered

00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:39.559
me a top down view as a cautionary reminder that

00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:43.140
the external validation and there are a lot of

00:27:44.019 --> 00:27:47.400
It's like founder culture or hustle culture is

00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:50.539
very external, right? I'm doing so much, and

00:27:50.539 --> 00:27:53.420
I'm in this city, and I'm that city. But in the

00:27:53.420 --> 00:27:56.359
end, you're running a business. And you're not

00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:58.759
just running one business. You're running multiple

00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:01.539
potential businesses backwards and forwards,

00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:03.680
because it could be a number of different things.

00:28:04.099 --> 00:28:07.319
And my job as the CEO is to understand every

00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:10.700
business this possibly could be. and then to

00:28:10.700 --> 00:28:13.779
build both forwards and backwards simultaneously

00:28:13.779 --> 00:28:19.420
to what those strategic options are. So as long

00:28:19.420 --> 00:28:21.859
as you can always come back to the center, am

00:28:21.859 --> 00:28:24.940
I moving the right ball down the right field

00:28:24.940 --> 00:28:28.160
at the right pace? Then that's the guidepost.

00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:30.599
But you do have to check back in with yourself

00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.839
because you can end up spending two quarters

00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:39.819
on the big world tour and get a lot of press.

00:28:40.940 --> 00:28:44.579
But if that press doesn't translate into moving

00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:47.720
the core, the core business down the field or

00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:49.759
the primary program or whatever it is that you're

00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:51.960
actually supposed to be doing at that time, it

00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:56.940
can actually just be a distraction. What is the

00:28:56.940 --> 00:29:01.859
path to exit for swaza? Yeah, so there are a

00:29:01.859 --> 00:29:06.019
couple of different strategic option so that

00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:09.779
it's all situational based on where we find ourselves

00:29:09.779 --> 00:29:12.900
at different inflection points. So our primary

00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:15.460
assets was a one, which is the nanofluid breathing

00:29:15.460 --> 00:29:20.299
aid. We're accelerating that into phase two clinical.

00:29:21.380 --> 00:29:24.940
Studies within the next eighteen months. And

00:29:24.940 --> 00:29:27.880
pending on early readout of those phase two studies

00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:31.960
there are a couple of options one is to already

00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:35.779
strategically partner with the big pharma to

00:29:35.779 --> 00:29:41.039
bring that asset to market to is to also or to

00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:46.670
seek. Then. funding from the public markets to

00:29:46.670 --> 00:29:49.269
then support later clinical trials, which is

00:29:49.269 --> 00:29:53.309
sort of a classic biotech playbook. But this

00:29:53.309 --> 00:29:59.990
was pre -COVID playbook. So you and your audience

00:29:59.990 --> 00:30:02.009
may have heard of Merck's recent acquisition

00:30:02.009 --> 00:30:07.529
of Verona Therapeutics and for their first in

00:30:07.529 --> 00:30:13.799
class COPD drug. And Verona was one of these

00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:16.559
companies that had very good early phase two

00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:20.299
readout. They went public on the NASDAQ in 2017,

00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:24.200
raised $80 million, did their full clinical trials,

00:30:24.220 --> 00:30:26.839
and actually got the drug already approved in

00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.599
2024 by the FDA. And it was after that point

00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.440
that Merck went in and then acquired them for

00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:38.000
$10 billion. So many multiples over what Merck

00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:40.700
might have had to pay if they had come in earlier.

00:30:41.180 --> 00:30:43.519
Big pharmas, the cost of capital for them is

00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:46.940
much smaller. They can afford to completely come

00:30:46.940 --> 00:30:50.240
into a de -risked asset and acquire it later.

00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:54.799
They have the cash to do that. But that's sort

00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:59.400
of a classic. strategic option for a company

00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:04.380
like Swaza. So it really depends on the gates

00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:07.319
where you cross. What we are hoping for is nice

00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:09.900
early phase two readout. What we would like to

00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:14.059
be able to do is leverage that into much larger

00:31:14.059 --> 00:31:17.339
capitalization to be able to then fuel not only

00:31:17.339 --> 00:31:19.940
that asset, but we have a number of other programs

00:31:19.940 --> 00:31:26.099
because we have technology for wound healing,

00:31:26.180 --> 00:31:29.019
for example, to suffuse wounds and burns with

00:31:29.019 --> 00:31:32.400
oxygen, replicating the benefits of hyperbaric

00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:35.700
oxygen therapy treatment without the hyperbaric

00:31:35.700 --> 00:31:37.940
oxygen chambers. You can imagine that this can

00:31:37.940 --> 00:31:40.799
be very useful for patients with diabetic ulcers,

00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.599
for which there actually aren't any topical specifically

00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:49.099
approved for that. Actually, you think of the

00:31:49.099 --> 00:31:54.609
current leading drugs for they actually indicate

00:31:54.609 --> 00:31:57.630
in the labeling that it's not really intended

00:31:57.630 --> 00:32:00.109
for use where there's poor vascularization, for

00:32:00.109 --> 00:32:02.470
example, which kind of defeats the point. That's

00:32:02.470 --> 00:32:05.849
an area of unmet need that we'd like to address.

00:32:06.490 --> 00:32:09.710
But we also have other advanced delivery technologies

00:32:09.710 --> 00:32:14.990
which are very promising that we want to advance.

00:32:15.069 --> 00:32:17.849
For example, being able to leverage the colon.

00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:21.519
for advanced drug delivery for a number of different

00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:26.039
indications to be able to bypass the liver. And

00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:29.400
then also, we have very advanced sublingual technologies,

00:32:29.539 --> 00:32:31.839
which we can load various peptides and molecules

00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:37.220
on. Again, minimally invasive, noninvasive, bypassing

00:32:37.220 --> 00:32:40.940
the GI tract and the liver. So inhalation route

00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:44.700
of drug delivery, also extremely promising for

00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:47.880
a number of things. So we have a number of really

00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:50.980
exciting projects that we are developing and

00:32:50.980 --> 00:32:53.740
pushing forward. And we want our first asset

00:32:53.740 --> 00:33:00.420
to be the Vanguard to be able to expand all of

00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:05.660
those technologies. For the physicians listening,

00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:09.380
I think we inherently recognize that ventilation

00:33:09.380 --> 00:33:14.180
is kind of the worst way to deliver oxygen. But

00:33:14.180 --> 00:33:18.519
we also then say, well, When we think of something

00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:24.160
like Swaza, you know, nanotherapeutics delivering

00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:27.119
oxygen to the alveoli, it sounds like science

00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:34.759
fiction. Talk to me about, yeah, just talk to

00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:38.480
me a bit more about the technology, about the

00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:41.339
delivery method, and then is the goal to then

00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:47.039
replace? ventilators and intubation and how do

00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:50.319
you kind of think about the initial clinical

00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:53.839
use case and then what's the blue ocean or blue

00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.819
sky scenario? Yeah, in essence what we've developed

00:33:57.819 --> 00:34:02.660
with SWASA is a topical breathing egg that comprises

00:34:02.660 --> 00:34:06.319
liquid nanoparticles that can enable dynamic

00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:09.519
gas exchange at the surface. of the lung. So

00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:12.400
we're actually addressing the physical barriers,

00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.480
the key universal features of lung injuries.

00:34:15.539 --> 00:34:19.139
So you have fluid buildup, protein buildup, and

00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:21.579
oftentimes scar tissue at the surface, which

00:34:21.579 --> 00:34:24.980
are a physical block from oxygen coming in and

00:34:24.980 --> 00:34:28.820
carbon dioxide leaving. And so what we've done

00:34:28.820 --> 00:34:33.230
with this technology is actually leverage technology

00:34:33.230 --> 00:34:35.409
that was actually developed in the 1960s by the

00:34:35.409 --> 00:34:38.909
US Navy, where they were really interested in

00:34:38.909 --> 00:34:41.309
media that you could breathe instead of air for

00:34:41.309 --> 00:34:44.670
deep sea submarine. So the concept of liquid

00:34:44.670 --> 00:34:48.409
breathing has been long known in literature,

00:34:48.429 --> 00:34:53.590
but has been very limited in practice because,

00:34:53.670 --> 00:34:58.409
well, as mammals, land mammals, we don't want

00:34:58.409 --> 00:35:01.489
to drown in fluid in order to breathe. And so

00:35:01.489 --> 00:35:04.710
this idea of replacing air with fluid one to

00:35:04.710 --> 00:35:07.550
one was the governing paradigm for the use of

00:35:07.550 --> 00:35:11.610
these materials. Our insight and where we turn

00:35:11.610 --> 00:35:14.809
this around was to say, well, what if we didn't

00:35:14.809 --> 00:35:17.210
actually replace the air with the fluid? But

00:35:17.210 --> 00:35:20.250
what if we use the fluid and encapsulate it in

00:35:20.250 --> 00:35:22.929
such a way where we can use it as a gas shuttle?

00:35:23.659 --> 00:35:27.079
And that's what we've done with Swaza. So this

00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:29.420
may be a silly question, but do we still need

00:35:29.420 --> 00:35:33.159
to inspire and expire? Do we still need the diaphragm

00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:35.619
moving up and down for this technology to work?

00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:39.639
Yes. And so it's working with how we breathe

00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:42.920
with our negative pressure diaphragmatic breathing.

00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.699
So the idea is when someone is under a certain

00:35:46.699 --> 00:35:51.050
amount of respiratory distress, if we can Use

00:35:51.050 --> 00:35:53.170
the diaphragmatic breathing, which actually provides

00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:57.710
the mechanical force necessary to power the particle,

00:35:57.789 --> 00:36:01.730
so to speak, to stir them in the alveoli. Then

00:36:01.730 --> 00:36:05.809
we can enable the diffusion of gas through those

00:36:05.809 --> 00:36:09.750
liquid and fibrotic barriers, and then sustain

00:36:09.750 --> 00:36:14.449
the person on their own breathing. while their

00:36:14.449 --> 00:36:16.869
clinicians are addressing the underlying cause

00:36:16.869 --> 00:36:19.909
of the inflammation or the sepsis or whatever

00:36:19.909 --> 00:36:24.050
is actually causing the injury. So this is addressing

00:36:24.050 --> 00:36:27.409
the gas exchange part. And it has to do with

00:36:27.409 --> 00:36:31.030
actually the material's very strong affinity

00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:34.590
for carbon dioxide is actually the driver for

00:36:34.590 --> 00:36:38.070
it. But under the atmospheric and physiological

00:36:38.070 --> 00:36:41.210
conditions that you would find in a human lung,

00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.940
what you would be doing is actually delivering

00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:48.480
oxygen and absorbing carbon dioxide and exhaling

00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.119
it. Where this technology is actually very exciting

00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:54.659
for us as well is that because it sequesters

00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:57.420
carbon dioxide in a situation where you have

00:36:57.420 --> 00:37:01.400
a hypercapnia or something like a COPD exacerbation,

00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:03.760
and this is when we're thinking blue sky, which

00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:07.230
is that could be very, very useful. in dealing

00:37:07.230 --> 00:37:09.630
with those specific conditions and helping provide

00:37:09.630 --> 00:37:12.250
relief for those patients. But it was designed

00:37:12.250 --> 00:37:15.250
to be a breathing aid that could be used in austere

00:37:15.250 --> 00:37:18.010
environments. It's nebulized with simple jet

00:37:18.010 --> 00:37:20.150
nebulizers. Or basically, we actually have a

00:37:20.150 --> 00:37:22.949
device that's simple compressed air device, solar

00:37:22.949 --> 00:37:26.510
powered, battery powered, that if you were out

00:37:26.510 --> 00:37:31.349
in an area where you didn't have much infrastructure

00:37:31.349 --> 00:37:34.989
clinically, you could still apply this material.

00:37:36.380 --> 00:37:40.280
Now, I think the obvious use case is healthcare,

00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:42.679
but it seems like you've come across other use

00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:48.340
cases like defense and maybe travel or deep sea

00:37:48.340 --> 00:37:51.659
diving or altitude sickness. How do you think

00:37:51.659 --> 00:37:55.460
about go to market for a solution such as this,

00:37:55.500 --> 00:37:58.579
which could have potentially different use cases?

00:38:00.030 --> 00:38:02.730
Yeah, I think those are what we're exploring

00:38:02.730 --> 00:38:07.369
now. And actually, our work with NATO and the

00:38:07.369 --> 00:38:09.570
US Department of Defense is very synergistic

00:38:09.570 --> 00:38:13.250
in that, in being able to explore, for example,

00:38:14.070 --> 00:38:24.090
uses for high altitude or dive injury, but then

00:38:24.090 --> 00:38:28.909
also more broadly in the recovery of human performance

00:38:28.909 --> 00:38:32.570
to be able to repair lung tissue, for example,

00:38:32.750 --> 00:38:37.210
after extreme exertions, or to be able to sustain,

00:38:37.210 --> 00:38:41.730
for example, VO2 max under extreme conditions.

00:38:42.170 --> 00:38:44.329
But just for the average person, for example,

00:38:44.539 --> 00:38:47.800
Many of us, I'm probably one of the people included,

00:38:48.059 --> 00:38:51.500
are at risk for being pretty hypoxemic on planes.

00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:55.619
Our blood oxygen just drops, for example. And

00:38:55.619 --> 00:38:57.360
for certain people with certain conditions, that

00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:03.139
can be very risky. For people over 65 who are

00:39:03.139 --> 00:39:05.980
very much at risk of ischemic heart disease,

00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:09.059
if you can imagine having this be portable with

00:39:09.059 --> 00:39:12.599
you in your undergoing an event to try to protect

00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:16.380
the heart tissue quickly while you get to the

00:39:16.380 --> 00:39:20.039
hospital or while you get to your clinician can

00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:22.360
mean the difference between that first heart

00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:28.739
attack and a second fatal one, for example. And

00:39:28.739 --> 00:39:32.699
so we, big picture, we envision this being something

00:39:32.699 --> 00:39:35.579
in the back of every ambulance and actually being

00:39:35.579 --> 00:39:38.480
carried by people who are at particular risk,

00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.599
sort of an EpiPen for oxygen, so to speak. That's

00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:45.659
sort of the big picture. And then if all the

00:39:45.659 --> 00:39:50.139
safety data, which we are confident actually

00:39:50.139 --> 00:39:53.719
can be supported by further study and validated,

00:39:55.019 --> 00:39:57.900
align, it's something that we would like to see

00:39:57.900 --> 00:40:02.000
broadly available to people for those uses. How

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:07.300
do you think about intuition when building and

00:40:07.300 --> 00:40:12.489
selling in this industry? And maybe give us an

00:40:12.489 --> 00:40:15.889
example where you encountered something while

00:40:15.889 --> 00:40:20.130
building which challenged your intuition. And

00:40:20.130 --> 00:40:23.230
how did you kind of, so for me, I used to be

00:40:23.230 --> 00:40:29.369
a very intuitive person in terms of who to hire.

00:40:29.889 --> 00:40:32.829
And I've kind of been wrong so many times. So

00:40:32.829 --> 00:40:36.670
I think vibe hiring does not work, and you need

00:40:36.670 --> 00:40:40.329
a structured process. So I think it's hard to

00:40:40.329 --> 00:40:42.429
kind of know when to trust your intuition and

00:40:42.429 --> 00:40:48.050
when not to. Whereas maybe the easy or the lazy

00:40:48.050 --> 00:40:50.190
way is to always trust my intuition, because

00:40:50.190 --> 00:40:53.670
then I don't have to do the structured diligence

00:40:53.670 --> 00:40:57.230
on the back end of things. Yeah, so how do you

00:40:57.230 --> 00:41:01.679
think about intuition? And then like, yeah, just

00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:04.619
give me maybe an example where something happened

00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:07.360
and then you were like, oh, like intuitively

00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:13.739
this didn't make sense to me. Yeah. I mean, in

00:41:13.739 --> 00:41:16.840
a kind of scientific environment where there

00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:21.199
are a lot of unknowns, you often have to experiment

00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:25.260
your way forward. But I like what you said about

00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:27.340
intuition and just caused me to think, well,

00:41:27.340 --> 00:41:30.900
what do we really mean about intuition? And intuition

00:41:30.900 --> 00:41:34.500
is essentially a heuristic based on our informed

00:41:34.500 --> 00:41:41.679
choices and experiences. And so sometimes intuition

00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:45.539
can be a reflection of cognitive biases, which

00:41:45.539 --> 00:41:48.579
may not be helpful. And so I'll give you an example.

00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:53.019
I very early on in establishing the company as

00:41:53.019 --> 00:41:57.320
the investor, I did not have the plan of actually

00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:02.539
leading the company. What I did was I put in

00:42:02.539 --> 00:42:07.820
some initial capital, syndicated some investors

00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:12.400
from the Valley to come in early. And then I

00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:16.599
set about trying to hire the right CEO. And this

00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:20.280
was at the time, like late 2021, the public markets

00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:22.139
were already starting to tank a bit. And this

00:42:22.139 --> 00:42:25.460
was the very beginning of biotech winter. the

00:42:25.460 --> 00:42:27.780
early science had already been happening. So

00:42:27.780 --> 00:42:31.099
when I was calling sort of my Boston crew, Harvard

00:42:31.099 --> 00:42:34.199
Medical School crew, empty PhDs who had all the

00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:38.380
right kind of credentials done by a pharma startup

00:42:38.380 --> 00:42:40.800
before, they said, hey, Nikki, we really love

00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:42.599
this technology. We think it's great. We want

00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.280
to support you whenever we can. We do not want

00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:47.539
to have to raise money in this environment. So

00:42:47.539 --> 00:42:49.619
if you want us on board to do that, we'll help

00:42:49.619 --> 00:42:52.719
you. But we don't want to do that. And I said,

00:42:52.780 --> 00:42:57.199
well, that's the job. Right? And then so I thought,

00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.780
and at that point, what my intuition had told

00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:03.780
me was, well, look, Nikki, you need to get someone

00:43:03.780 --> 00:43:08.659
who fits a certain demographic profile, a certain

00:43:08.659 --> 00:43:13.340
pedigree, a certain look, a certain type, just

00:43:13.340 --> 00:43:15.380
fill in the blank of whatever cardboard cutout

00:43:15.380 --> 00:43:18.940
you think should be that founder to be able to

00:43:18.940 --> 00:43:22.559
raise money. And that's your job is to find that.

00:43:23.300 --> 00:43:26.539
And that, quote, intuition meant I wasn't that

00:43:26.539 --> 00:43:32.579
face. I wasn't that cardboard cut out. But somehow

00:43:32.579 --> 00:43:35.400
I thought that from behind a curtain, I was going

00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:39.260
to plan the roadmap, drive the roadmap, resource

00:43:39.260 --> 00:43:41.300
it with the right people, resource it with the

00:43:41.300 --> 00:43:45.449
right team. And yet somehow this other entity

00:43:45.449 --> 00:43:47.750
out there, this person who is supposed to be

00:43:47.750 --> 00:43:50.210
that right CEO was going to raise a bunch of

00:43:50.210 --> 00:43:53.269
money for the company. That turned out to be

00:43:53.269 --> 00:43:56.829
a massive mistake. Yeah. Yeah. Given your experience,

00:43:57.449 --> 00:43:59.610
like for me, you would be the cardboard cutter

00:43:59.610 --> 00:44:05.610
and the person to raise money for anything, including

00:44:05.610 --> 00:44:10.130
SSA. Well, my intuition was informed by certain

00:44:10.130 --> 00:44:13.599
quote facts, such as only 2 % to 3 % of venture

00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:18.440
capital goes to women founded companies, much

00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:23.699
less minority women founded companies. And then

00:44:23.699 --> 00:44:27.139
we're also, we were still in the wake or the

00:44:27.139 --> 00:44:30.320
shadow of an Elizabeth home. And I'm dealing

00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:32.880
with a technology that, as you said yourself,

00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:35.500
sounds like science fiction, right? It takes

00:44:35.500 --> 00:44:39.900
some explaining, but it's very scientifically

00:44:39.900 --> 00:44:44.760
sound. But when it's category changing. So all

00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:47.280
of those things, quote, had informed my intuition

00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:52.260
in 2021. But they were all wrong on a lot of

00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:54.940
different levels as well. I thought I was being

00:44:54.940 --> 00:45:00.030
prudent, but really, it was just reinforcing

00:45:00.030 --> 00:45:06.230
these biases. And the funny thing is, I did something

00:45:06.230 --> 00:45:09.469
that I would have never advised a mentee of mine

00:45:09.469 --> 00:45:13.090
to do, which would be to recede into the background,

00:45:13.730 --> 00:45:16.610
thinking that this other strategy would make

00:45:16.610 --> 00:45:23.690
the company win. And that wasn't correct. Do

00:45:23.690 --> 00:45:27.519
you think entrepreneurship is innate? Were you

00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:30.679
always an entrepreneur, say, when you were in

00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:34.159
middle school in your teenage years, or do you

00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:37.739
think it can be learned? I would say I was always

00:45:37.739 --> 00:45:44.380
creative, slightly iconoclastic and moved outside

00:45:44.380 --> 00:45:49.099
the strictures and the structures of what was

00:45:49.099 --> 00:45:51.599
around me to create things, but I would have

00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:56.300
never labeled myself as an entrepreneur. And

00:45:56.300 --> 00:45:59.519
I've asked that same question, Rashad, are there

00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:02.280
people born to be this? I think it's along a

00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:04.039
spectrum. There are some people that you know

00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:07.199
that they could never work for anybody else,

00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.739
that they have to strike out on their own. But

00:46:10.739 --> 00:46:15.039
I think our current environment actually demands

00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:22.380
us all to be entrepreneurs. We don't have the

00:46:22.380 --> 00:46:29.780
stability of institutions and. Cultural and even

00:46:29.780 --> 00:46:34.639
work norms that we had even 30 years ago. So

00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:39.619
everybody now has to think in terms of the the

00:46:39.619 --> 00:46:42.679
entrepreneur and i don't want to say that rightly

00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:45.679
but i think is humans we actually are highly

00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:50.059
adaptable. We solve problems we do that every

00:46:50.059 --> 00:46:55.219
day. I say, moms are the best entrepreneurs,

00:46:55.420 --> 00:46:57.739
right? Like if you want something done, ask a

00:46:57.739 --> 00:47:01.739
busy mom, for example, because they've got to

00:47:01.739 --> 00:47:04.440
manage building up human beings what could be

00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:07.719
more complicated or complex than that. So I think

00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:10.659
I see those skills and capabilities in people

00:47:10.659 --> 00:47:17.440
every day. And I think the environment that we

00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:19.940
live in now demand more of that. And I think

00:47:19.940 --> 00:47:23.119
it's a human thing to create. And it's a human

00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:26.780
thing to build. I think we are made to be creators.

00:47:28.260 --> 00:47:31.539
We've just formed that way. We're designed that

00:47:31.539 --> 00:47:37.619
way. And so in as much as entrepreneurism is

00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:40.940
an expression of that, I think we all are naturally

00:47:40.940 --> 00:47:42.960
entrepreneurs, whether we call ourselves that

00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:48.239
or not. What do you think is the path to changing

00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:51.059
the statistic that only 2 % to 3 % of venture

00:47:51.059 --> 00:47:56.039
capital flows to women? And even substantially,

00:47:56.239 --> 00:48:01.460
I'm assuming a small minority of that flows to

00:48:01.460 --> 00:48:07.500
minority women. I wish I had a really good answer

00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:15.360
to that question. I think It's just a matter

00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:22.659
of normalizing the effort. I tend to find that

00:48:22.659 --> 00:48:26.760
separating out women founders hasn't been as

00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:29.019
effective for women founders as we think it might

00:48:29.019 --> 00:48:31.880
be, like having women only funds, for example.

00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:35.460
They tend to be under a different kind of microscope.

00:48:35.739 --> 00:48:38.480
and actually tend to be more risk averse, right?

00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:40.940
Because they have to, you know, they have to

00:48:40.940 --> 00:48:43.119
win. They have to get returns. There's also always

00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:46.500
that stigma if you're in this. So I'm a minority

00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:49.719
in India. And then I was a minority when I moved

00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:54.460
to Canada when I was 16. I was one of four brown

00:48:54.460 --> 00:48:58.639
people in my high school. Although I used to

00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:00.340
think of myself a minority. I don't think I am

00:49:00.340 --> 00:49:03.480
anymore. If you look at the CEOs of a lot of

00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:10.860
public companies. I think intuitively I agree

00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:14.440
that if there is a class of humans that is oppressed,

00:49:14.739 --> 00:49:17.639
and I agree, women and women minorities are,

00:49:18.340 --> 00:49:21.440
they need to be uplifted so they're no longer

00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:23.980
oppressed. That makes sense to me. I don't know

00:49:23.980 --> 00:49:27.460
anyone who would argue against that. I don't

00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:28.920
personally know. I'm sure there are people who

00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:33.699
would argue against that. how to do it is more

00:49:33.699 --> 00:49:36.000
difficult and I can only speak from personal

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:40.739
experience just seeing a lot more brown male

00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:44.219
CEOs. I don't feel oppressed anymore and I'm

00:49:44.219 --> 00:49:47.039
not a minority anymore, right? And there was

00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:50.800
no category that I know of for that specific

00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:56.380
race and gender for venture funding. I think

00:49:56.380 --> 00:49:58.219
you bring up a very interesting point is having

00:49:58.219 --> 00:50:04.300
these categories does it kind of make people

00:50:04.300 --> 00:50:06.679
who belong to those categories more insecure

00:50:06.679 --> 00:50:09.860
that I got this funding or I got this job because

00:50:09.860 --> 00:50:14.519
of my demographics, but not because of my aptitude?

00:50:15.659 --> 00:50:17.760
So we would love for you to kind of maybe dig

00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:21.539
a little bit deeper and like, does it mean that

00:50:21.539 --> 00:50:23.980
we just don't do it externally and internally,

00:50:24.219 --> 00:50:28.280
you know, we still uplift people? who need to

00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:34.599
be uplifted. Yeah. I think it's both. I think

00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:41.000
you want to reach down and support talent where

00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:44.739
you find it, and then also recognize where some

00:50:44.739 --> 00:50:49.139
of those barriers and challenges might be. I

00:50:49.139 --> 00:50:52.599
was challenged recently by very profound work

00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:57.480
by my colleague, Siri Chalaxi, who is a researcher

00:50:57.480 --> 00:50:59.980
at the Harvard Kennedy School. And she just came

00:50:59.980 --> 00:51:03.719
out with a book called Make Work Fair. And it's

00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:05.960
really fascinating work. They were particularly

00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:09.719
looking at gender discrepancies, for example,

00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:14.300
in corporate leadership and latter. And they

00:51:14.300 --> 00:51:17.900
found that these very kind of data -driven interventions

00:51:17.900 --> 00:51:23.920
really worked to level things out. And it wasn't

00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:27.300
really about categorizing people and separating

00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:29.699
them into specific programs, et cetera. But it

00:51:29.699 --> 00:51:32.719
was really just creating practices just even

00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:38.599
by the way that you screen resumes and write

00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:46.019
job descriptions to not privilege any particular

00:51:46.019 --> 00:51:49.079
group, but actually make it make it more fair.

00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:55.579
And these resulted in very good outcomes for

00:51:55.579 --> 00:51:57.500
everybody involved in the organizations that

00:51:57.500 --> 00:51:59.980
they studied. And so I think there is one thing,

00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:03.320
as we are all building companies and organizations,

00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:07.860
we should be mindful about the policies and structures

00:52:07.860 --> 00:52:13.500
and who we hire. I have a number of other female

00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:17.619
CEO colleagues in biotech who are also aware

00:52:17.619 --> 00:52:20.820
of these issues. But then we talk about, for

00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:24.139
example, hiring. And then they'll, for example,

00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:29.039
pick a candidate over a really great candidate,

00:52:29.099 --> 00:52:30.900
maybe a more qualified candidate who was like

00:52:30.900 --> 00:52:34.000
a mom. But she couldn't start right at that time

00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:36.760
they wanted her to because she needed to factor

00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:40.880
in the school start times. And I thought, guys,

00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:45.840
why are we Why are we doing this? Right? Like,

00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:51.000
it's our job to think about, are we perpetuating

00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:56.639
things that actually are then holding back really

00:52:56.639 --> 00:53:02.340
great talent? Because we have these ideas that

00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:06.199
somehow our organizations would be better benefited

00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:09.900
by by some what what what difference does it

00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:12.409
make if you change that higher by like, six,

00:53:12.429 --> 00:53:15.510
eight weeks. And you got this really great person.

00:53:16.250 --> 00:53:21.869
But you're discounting her off the bat because

00:53:21.869 --> 00:53:28.530
you didn't want to take into account this one

00:53:28.530 --> 00:53:30.809
consideration. So we have to be very mindful

00:53:30.809 --> 00:53:34.469
of that. And human beings, they have babies.

00:53:35.670 --> 00:53:38.570
For example, just think on a very basic level.

00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:44.119
In most cultures around the world, the majority

00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:48.019
of that work or thinking around that falls to

00:53:48.019 --> 00:53:52.860
moms. Well, as companies, as leaders, have we

00:53:52.860 --> 00:53:55.659
factored that in? Are we ruling out talent by

00:53:55.659 --> 00:53:58.679
not being able to be flexible to ramp these really

00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:00.579
talented people? It's not even about their gender.

00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:05.840
They're talented. ramp them back into the workforce

00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:08.719
properly so that we can benefit from that talent

00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:11.099
and we create value out of that. This is not

00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:14.679
charity. This is good business. So I've thought

00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:18.139
about these questions for a while. And I think

00:54:18.139 --> 00:54:21.300
it's in building organizations too. When you're

00:54:21.300 --> 00:54:23.239
in charge of the policy and you're in charge

00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:28.099
of the hiring, not vibe hiring because we vibe

00:54:28.099 --> 00:54:31.579
with people who are like us. And when I think

00:54:31.579 --> 00:54:36.800
about our company how very different the people

00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:39.960
that were brought together are we share very

00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:43.719
similar values underneath but as people we are

00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:46.960
radically different and if it was on vibes it

00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:51.739
would not have happened and um but if it was

00:54:51.739 --> 00:54:54.880
on purpose if it's on creation of value like

00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:57.260
if we but these are the exact people that we

00:54:57.260 --> 00:55:00.780
need On board to create this thing and build

00:55:00.780 --> 00:55:03.840
it forward but it's definitely not on vibes and

00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:05.900
it's definitely not on similarities and we tend

00:55:05.900 --> 00:55:10.400
to over rotate towards. Would i be like buddies

00:55:10.400 --> 00:55:13.719
with that this person the thing is you grow into

00:55:13.719 --> 00:55:17.360
that relationship. We're built for connection

00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:19.980
and you tend to find people that you spend more

00:55:19.980 --> 00:55:23.519
time with somehow you would have never been friends

00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:26.179
with them maybe just walking across the street

00:55:26.179 --> 00:55:30.159
and meeting them but. But in a shared mission

00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:33.340
together, you're a brand of brothers. You're

00:55:33.340 --> 00:55:35.519
a band of brothers and sisters. And because you

00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:38.980
have the shared purpose. So yeah, I think being

00:55:38.980 --> 00:55:42.239
aware of our tendency towards vibe anything,

00:55:42.340 --> 00:55:45.860
right? And then stepping back and saying, hey,

00:55:45.980 --> 00:55:48.480
what if I thought about this in a more holistic

00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:53.440
way or in a bigger picture way to reflect my

00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:57.869
values in what I think is important? um, societally

00:55:57.869 --> 00:56:00.929
within my, the confines of my own company is,

00:56:00.929 --> 00:56:05.530
is a, was a place to start. I think this is a

00:56:05.530 --> 00:56:08.449
great place to end. Thanks so much for joining

00:56:08.449 --> 00:56:11.449
us today, Nikki. Rashad, it's been a real pleasure.

00:56:11.550 --> 00:56:12.469
Thanks for having me.